Yantra is a rhythm. It takes time to discover it. Interview with Fabio Andrico

Fabio Andrico has been teaching Yoga internationally for over 30 years. He began his yoga career in the mid-seventies, when he studied Sivananda Yoga during a trip to India. In the following years, Andrico was exposed to many different yoga traditions. He ultimately met his teacher, Dzogchen Master Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, in 1977 and had the rare opportunity to learn the Tibetan tradition of Yantra Yoga directly from this lineage holder. Andrico is both a Hatha Yoga and Yantra Yoga instructor, as well as an authorized trainer of Yantra Yoga teachers. He teaches Yantra Yoga internationally to groups of up to 700 participants in venues on six continents.

Can you briefly describe the levels of Yantra yoga?

Fabio: These are not really levels. We can only talk about an open/close level for the reasons mentioned above. Because some things you can teach openly with a definite benefit from such practice and certain things have no sense to be taught without a transmission. But in the structure of the series there are no levels, in the sense that series of each of 5 groups (5 groups and there are 5 basic positions in each plus every yantra has two variations, so all together there are 25 yantra, each group covers five breath holdings, always the same sequence - open hold, directed hold, closed hold, pulled back hold and empty hold) are more related to the breathing aspect rather than to complexity.

But in the book I saw some postures, which looked very complicated, like ganda bherundasana, very advanced backbend. So, does the beginner do all “Eight movements” sequence, or begins step by step?

Fabio: It depends on the capacity of practitioner, but obviously firstly we teach the preliminaries. But my point is that in groups of yantra themselves, in the basic yantras – the position of contracted hold or directed hold in the first group for some people is much more complicated that one in the third group. There is no an escalation of difficulty when you move from the first group to the following ones, of course there are variations, which are generally more difficult than the basic position. It is true, however, than the first and the second groups are a bit easier. When the practitioner starts the 3rd group, added some advanced movements, it is the way of jumping. Of course if a person doesn’t practice with intent, there is no need to add it, however, if you practice it, then from there you start going more concretely in a certain direction. In Hatha yoga there are sequences of asanas, for example the sequence which i`ve studied in Rishikesh, where you have a certain number of asanas, balancing, compensating each other. Every Yantra sequence is also balanced within itself - if there is twisting to the right with a breath hold - there always will be twisting to the left, without hold, but just as a counter-balance. Then there will be a repetition for the other side, but again with a counter-balance. And the five yantras of the group counter-balance each other. The coordination and harmony of Yantra yoga is amazing.

Do you think it was created by Varaciana himself?

Fabio: I don’t think anything, I simply don’t know. I know that Varaciana compiled and wrote down it.

Are all of the exercises written in Tantra?

Fabio: Is it`s all in the text. There is the root text and the commentary. Of course, the root text is essential, but commentaries are important for clarification. That’s why you need Namkai Norbu Rimpoche`s commentary, based on direct and oral instructions of his uncle - Urgyen Tenzin, who clarified different aspects. And Urgyen Tenzin himself had been receiving direct instructions from great Yantra yoga practitioners for a long time in a place of retreat to refine and deepen his knowledge of Yantra, understanding and capacity. And Rimpoche received most instructions from him, based on which he took notes and after some time compiled the commentaries. Then, for many years he had been going through the book, making photos and drawings, clarifying different aspects. Later he would say, that he had never been so much into something than the book of Yantra yoga. In his commentaries he made sure that each and every point was coordinated with the root text, clarified through instructions and explanations he received from his teachers, and that is the commentary text.

Comparing to modern schools of Hatha yoga, in this lineage nothing has changed. People of this lineage didn’t bring anything new to it.

Fabio: It should be like this. One thing about Yantra yoga, if you want to change it, is how to change it? How do you change the fixed sequence of movements? One movement leads to another, if you modify one position it will be impossible to move to another, you would have to invent another yantra. Of course, in reality two different people would do the same thing differently, because their energy, body condition are different, but they still are trying to do the necessary position. It is very important, that they are not transforming or changing, sometimes people modify position automatically because their body is used to doing a certain movement in a certain way. You can see that different Yantra teachers are doing it a bit differently, it is also due to the fact that Yantra has not developed a biomechanics as modern yogic schools. These details are not in the text. I doubt that yogis, practicing in caves, worried too much about the position of foot or toes. It is more our Western paranoia. Yantra is working more on the level of prana and energy, so it doesn’t work in a same way with anatomy. For example, there is the Yantra of cobra – bhujangasana – generally it is taught to do with a chin tucked, in Yantra yoga it is totally the same, but also arms straight, arch back, whole body stretched and tensed and with breath hold - that would be a nightmare for Hatha yoga. Cobra trains what is called an open hold, where you keep the air inside, without blocking, forcing or directing it, just expanding. The tension (in Yantra called “tzunchel”) in body is at the point of trembling, but at the same time the breathing is completely open and relaxed. Its sometimes difficult to compare Yantra yoga with Hatha yoga, because they work at different levels of interaction between the body, energy and mind.

When comparing Indian Hatha yoga tradition with Tibetan tradition there are some things in common, but there are also certain differences. For example, in Tibetan tradition the main subtle channels are straight - central, right and left…

Fabio: I don’t think there is one point of view, I think there are different according to different methods. It’s just the potentiality, and then how can you strengthen this potentiality in many different ways, not just one. You can’t say that one description is true and the other is wrong, its not so limited. We have many people, coming from different yoga styles. Such people generally progress faster, unless they are not too, lets say “conditioned”. For example, those, who got used to ujjayi breathing, find it difficult to let it go. There is no ujjayi breathing in Yantra yoga, there is a smooth, direct breathing, without any kind of contraction or control. It is a very interesting and pure practice.

But is there anything in common in sitting pranayamas – do you have kapalabhati or bhastrika?

Fabio: No, not really. Trul khor, Tsa Lung is what you want to train for. In Yantra every single holding, every single movement works on its own, in its own direction, but always working with one or more of the five “Lung`s”, that govern every aspect of our existence: breathing, eating, digesting, thinking , giving birth etc.

Five Lungs like five pranas in Hatha and Ayurveda.

Fabio: Yes. So, it is working at this level, especially the aspect of holding the breath. If you put it together - it is part of the base, they all have separate, specific functions by themselves. But the overall focus, because that’s what it`s made for, is more at the level of the energy.

And preparation for more complicated practices is visualization?

Fabio: The aspect of visualization is not there…

May be visualization is not the best term… I mean practice of watching some subtle elements, like Togel, which was used, according to scriptures, for achieving “Rainbow body” (transformation physical body into light).

Fabio: As anything that can coordinate our condition, Yantra might be helpful for this also, but it`s not going that direction, at least what I know of. But if you look in the book- the chapter about what is supposed to be the manifestation of different aspects such as channels, prana, you read it and it looks like a miracle - walking on water surface, it is a part of our potentiality. It is not that you are focused on that, but if you manifest your potentiality it will happen by itself. For example Rimpoche`s uncle had manifestation, as far as I remember he was shot and nothing happened. He achieved the “Rainbow body”. But not because of Yantra, even though he was practicing Yantra every day, still to do such kind of things you need special teachings.

According to my own experience, in different Tibetan schools nowdays it is very rare to find Lama, who practices such things, like asanas or pranayamas.

Fabio: Yes, it`s true.

May be only among the Nagpa tradition.

Fabio: May be the Drugpa Kagyu.

Why do you think such techniques are not so popular in Vajrayana?

Fabio: I don’t know, may be it was kept in secret and we simply don’t know if they practiced it or not. I know that in different traditions there are different kinds of Trul Khor and there are different cycles of practices, related to Tsa Lung. And according to the tradition you have to receive an initiation first, and then you have the connection, the life of the teaching, then you can learn anything you want, but if you meet people without this understanding and this connection, then you can`t teach some aspects of Yantra, because there is no reason for learning it.

Now we teach openly all the 25 basic yantras and all aspects are being taught. It has always been open, Rimpoche always taught everything, but to a few people only who became his disciples. When you start to open up like this, then some of the aspects, which can harm, you don`t teach. When I was studying at the University, there was a man, who got a book about Kundalini practices, and without full understanding he was trying to awaken it. He ended up in a mental hospital. So, you have to be very careful what to teach and what to avoid. And that is the only reason, and not because of some sort of an enigmatic secrecy. But there is plenty to learn even within these 25 yantras. Yantra is also rhythm, and as much as I’ve seen yoga practitioners, being flexible can even become an obstacle, because they stop being present in what they are doing, they get distracted by the easiness of what they are doing. Sometimes they get the difficulty in coordinating the breathing with smoothness of the movement. In this training, even if you are an advanced asanas practitioner, generally it still takes time, it doesn`t come immediately. It is not only coordinating with the breath, but also coordinating the rhythm, coordinating how the movement starts and where it finishes with how the breathing starts and finishes, linking to the next movement and next breathing in the pace of the rhythm. In Yantra the rhythm is connected with the heartbeat of a relaxed person. And the rhythm of the heart coordinates the energy. Yantra is rhythm. It takes time to discover and appreciate it, but once you`ve done it then Yantra becomes very interesting and valuable.

What about the diet? Indian Hatha yoga prescribes practitioners to follow a pure vegetarian diet.

Fabio: There is no particular indication in Yantra, except for the certain conditions, under which you can relate to the Tibetan medicine to balance your health. If you practice in Tibet it`s not so easy to follow vegetarian diet, and in some situation there is not so much to eat anyways, so you don’t have to worry about vegetarian diet. You are thankful for a slice of bread with some butter on it.

This is true if you are practicing in the high mountains. We have recently published and interview with Chatral Rinpoche, who also belongs to Dzogchen lineage, and he is strictly preaching vegetarianism. He explained, that though in Tibetan high mountains there is indeed lack of food, in Nepal or India it is possible to lead a vegetarian lifestyle. He put an ethical underlying that one should avoid creating negative karma by eating flesh of killed animals.

Fabio: However, as I`ve said, in Yantra there is no particular indication of a vegetarian diet. As I know when Indian yogis practice a lot of pranayamas, they have to eat more butter, to balance the element of lungs. You always have to be aware of that and work under your personal condition.